4GD
In the next episode of the Haus of Hiatus brand growth podcast, we talk to Rob Taylor, a former Royal Marines Commando officer and founder of UK-based, 4GD, a technology and data-focussed defence training company that works with militaries all over the world.
4GD specialises in immersive Close Quarters Battle/Close Quarters Combat (CQB/CQC) training solutions for military and defence personnel, that aims to redefine the future of immersive AR and VR training by leveraging cutting-edge technologies.
The company's mission is to bridge the gap between operational reality and training experience, enhancing realism and scalability while maintaining user-friendliness. Their team draws from significant experience in the Royal Marines and the UK's Airborne Forces, influencing their understanding of the impact of technology on modern warfare.
We discuss the importance of branding, when to get a custom-coded website, how to tackle digital marketing, and why you should stop worrying about what your competitors are doing and just focus on your own swim lane.
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4GD - Haus of Hiatus brand growth podcast.mp3
00:00:00 Chris
Hi, I'm Chris, founder, senior brand designer and growth marketing strategist at Haus of Hiatus
00:00:06 Chris
Brand Growth Studio, we wanted to document innovative and disruptive ideas from successful small to medium sized enterprises to help startups to get strong market position as quickly as possible. In this episode, I talked to Rob Taylor, founder of 4GD.
00:00:20 Chris
A technology and data focused defence training company that works with militaries all.
00:00:24 Chris
Over the world.
00:00:25 Chris
We discussed the importance of branding when to get a custom coded website, how to tackle digital marketing, and what you should stop worrying about what your competitors are doing.
00:00:47 Chris
Hey, look. Great. Nice to see you again. And how's the business going?
00:00:50 Rob
Could see you. Yeah. Yeah. Good. It's sort of been a really busy summer, which is you're normally things quite done over August, but it's actually been quite a a sort of positively busy summer. How?
00:01:01 Rob
Myself.
00:01:03
They're really bumping up. Yeah, they make very good.
00:01:05 Chris
Very good. It's like like yourself, it's we've been kind of working a whole in any sort of services and stuff. And what I think it was gonna be a summer holiday actually just turned into just kind of an extended working day now by another like two or three hours. So I don't know why we keep on doing these things to us when maybe probably something something stems from links and all those years ago.
00:01:23 Chris
That's, you know, means just kind of top up on extra projects rather than just kind.
00:01:27 Chris
Of so we get rid of.
00:01:27 Rob
No. Yeah, you, mate, I can emphasise that.
00:01:33 Chris
But maybe just, I guess just to rather like me doing like a really poor job of kind of summarising 4G because I know you guys are are literally evolving so rapidly at the moment. Do you wanna give us a kind of a bit more about the business like I where where the idea came from and kind of what you what you guys specialise in these days?
00:01:48 Rob
So we effectively ostensibly do military training specifically in these sort of close combat urban space. However, it's it's really something to talk about more in as we move forward is I think.
00:02:04 Rob
With with sort of startups, it's very it's critical to go to sort of niche area to start with and use that and then exploit from there. So while ostensibly, yeah, we're close combat specialist, we build facilities, provide simulation and data capture capabilities that overlay those. Actually what we're trying to do is move into the data and synthetic space.
00:02:25 Rob
But using urban as a bit of a launch part into the broader military.
00:02:28 Rob
Which as you and and listeners will know as a vast industry, you know $2 trillion global industry that you can't attack all of it at once. You gotta pick a bit and then move on from there. So so it's effectively a Long story short, it would be a urban training specialist with a sort of strong tilt towards data capture and performance analytics.
00:02:38 Chris
Yes.
00:02:48 Chris
Yeah. So that, that kind of the whole human performance side of things, which is I guess probably just guesswork for previous few decades now is is essentially is digitising and becoming something that you can track, manage, improve.
00:03:00 Chris
Move and and I guess just just look at holistically and objectively without too much kind of bias creeping I guess, but is is?
00:03:10 Rob
A.
00:03:10 Chris
From my perspective.
00:03:11 Rob
100% and I think you know we've we've entered a different period to the one that you and.
00:03:15 Rob
I served in.
00:03:16 Rob
Where we were conducting sort of high density counter insurgency against.
00:03:21 Rob
Sort of a very committed but essentially not physically technologically enabled.
00:03:27 Rob
Opposition, whereas obviously with incidents in eastern.
00:03:30 Rob
Europe for the.
00:03:31 Rob
Last few years and not months and years, I think there's a much finer sort of degree of sort of performance we need to get. We need to be taking out every percent of soldiers performance in the post combat environment. So yeah, like you said, where before a sort of eyeball.
00:03:48 Rob
And as a subjective, yes, good. No bad would have sufficed. I think now we need to get into space where we can actually look at it at really, really finite levels of detail.
00:03:52 Chris
Yeah.
00:03:58 Chris
Yeah, man, I I think it's it, it's it's super exciting because it's, it's something I guess we we we sort of both really started to kind of see happening in the core when we were in you know in the kind of at that time we overlapped but it was something which I mean you you were you your work you know the last few few years was just incredible looking at things under a magnifying glass and just looking for.
00:04:19 Chris
So they like 1% marginal gains, you know, is almost almost at scientific level of like, how can we improve things to give us that competitive edge? Yeah. But I just remember seeing the white Papers you were producing. And I was like.
00:04:32 Chris
I am nowhere near that.
00:04:34 Chris
Says yes, I think it's it's it's.
00:04:36 Rob
Very, Connie. So, but I think it was more.
00:04:37 Rob
Just an interesting.
00:04:39 Rob
I think any industry, but also the military specifically always necessarily gravitate to the sort of technological Nirvana the product that's gonna make everything easy to get fit quick, strap a load of stuff onto your arms and get Arbs rather than.
00:04:53 Rob
Actually, decent training regimes, training, infrastructure, gyms, you know using that example. But in the military, you know we we focus.
00:04:59 Rob
On kitchen equipment and actually sometimes training and refining performance at a.
00:05:06 Rob
Very sort of.
00:05:07 Rob
Low level actually has a much cheaper bang for your buck. You know you're able to actually get a lot more out of kit if it's.
00:05:13 Rob
Used properly, I'm.
00:05:14 Rob
Not saying necessarily that we shouldn't be looking to strive to get the set the equipment, but I just.
00:05:18 Rob
Think I've always thought that we sort of.
00:05:20 Rob
Always rushed to the next purchase of kits rather than actually look to get better with said kit. You know, sort of football sport function hasn't changed loads over the last, you know, still football and football book seems to be the critical element of football. Yeah, performance clearly increased dramatically over the last 30-40.
00:05:38 Rob
Years, whereas which the military has had the technological improvement. But I don't feel like the training infrastructure training is necessarily caught up with the pace of change within the sort of tech space.
00:05:50 Chris
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was a quite interesting, I guess, probably what we saw in the the kind of the end of the Afghanistan era was it was, it was kind of gravitating towards from my perspective.
00:05:59 Chris
That that board game buckaroo, you know where.
00:06:01 Chris
It was like you, you.
00:06:02 Chris
The the guy just kept on getting lit up with more kissing equipment to the point where they're so unmovable than they realise. Actually this this is this is now a disadvantage and then we just start stripping things back and making it lighter and making them more manoeuvrable and and and almost like moving some of that risk to, you know, not being in those those kind of like situations in the first place.
00:06:23 Chris
Rather than proactively trying to solve them so it it almost just just seemed like a a whole. You know, we almost went through this whole loop of, you know, let's how can we defeat this problem? Just put something in the way of it. And then it was like, I know, right. But now seeing more of these problems because they're in the way of it too often now so.
00:06:25
Yeah.
00:06:39
Skip.
00:06:40 Chris
Yeah. Like, like what you're saying there if.
00:06:44 Chris
Taking this almost like hybrid approach of of making things a lot better so that you can sense when you're there and obviously make.
00:06:51 Chris
Make sure you're not there.
00:06:52 Rob
100%.
00:06:55 Chris
Umm.
00:06:55 Chris
But yeah, it's it's been 2 point like seeing seeing all the growth of 4GB over like the last kind of five and six years it's been it's been super inspiring and it's I.
00:07:05 Chris
I'm sure like give it another five or ten years and and you guys are gonna, you know, ruining be chatting cause you'll be like.
00:07:11 Chris
Like you know.
00:07:12 Chris
Moving into kind of new domains and and really just kind of looking at things under microscope and just like squeezing out that extra 1%. But I guess just just onto the, the kind of my second question is.
00:07:24 Chris
I mean, it's probably a fairly obvious one, but I thought I thought ask anyway. Like where does the brand name come from? Ford. I know what Ford D is, but I kind of want people to kind of understand the genesis of where, where it came from.
00:07:34 Rob
So slightly interesting and then slightly with a boring end to it where we got.
00:07:38 Rob
So.
00:07:39 Rob
We started off when I first.
00:07:41 Rob
Left the military. I did a couple of years in banking, realised that it wasn't for me and then left with a not sickly clear idea of what I wanted to do next. And so sort of initially thought about setting up a consultancy that focused on military equipment. And so originally we looked at sort of that.
00:07:59 Rob
And that then more gradually into the training space that we now sort of sit in as an as an.
00:08:04 Rob
Thatcher. So I was always very interested in the sort of first, second, third and 4th generation as of conflict, obviously now sort of entering 1/5, we're potentially regressing back to 4th with what's going on in Ukraine. So basically name the business 4th generation development of 4th generation warfare. But then looking at how we can develop to into performing better, the 4th generation now clearly.
00:08:26 Rob
When that started off, that was a super long URL, so it was like the world's hardest website. So we literally just thought you'd need a fourth duration. Development became 40. Just so it's a sort of try that. So yeah, it's interesting from a fourth generation warfare, pretty dull from a wide 40 did it was more of.
00:08:30
Yeah.
00:08:42 Rob
A URL point.
00:08:45 Chris
No, I think that just come back for the for the next bit in here is now. Now I see the the the logo and it's it's like a cool logo it's you know it fits in that kind of circular thing which gives it so many uses and but it just looks super modern and so you're almost by accident you've gone from this, this this trying to communicate this quite complicated thing.
00:09:04 Chris
Actually, to boil it down to its constituent parts, but then found that great space to fit it into so yeah.
00:09:10 Rob
Really really really random.
00:09:12 Rob
Benefit we've seen in the circular logo is.
00:09:15 Rob
No matter who you put your logo next to, you'll always be bigger, so if you get vertical logos, you're big. If you're horizontal logos, you're big. So it's very interesting. I think like ratio is a logo, something no one ever thinks of early on. I mean, you, you with your expertise will like logo ratio is something we found fascinating over the last years like having people get really angry with ours is massive.
00:09:36 Rob
Next to theirs, which is tiny just because of the way there's is rectangular. So yeah, it's been a. It's been an interesting sort of journey on on, on, on areas of ratio that I never expected to be.
00:09:45 Rob
Sort of an expert.
00:09:48 Chris
I've really I've I've been looking at kind of like the neuroscience psychology behind brands and stuff recently. And actually there there is, you know, kind of theory that, you know, the size of the logo actually is comparable to the size of the company. So I guess actually, you know, something that startups can definitely learn from this podcast, is it, if you want to, if you want to look like a bigger company as soon as possible, get a square, you know, a square ratio logo because that way you're going to be the.
00:10:09 Chris
Dominant thing in the.
00:10:10 Chris
You know on pages.
00:10:11 Rob
Whatever provocation, now 100% and just be careful I think also have really long thin ones. They just end up like when you print them out, they're just tiny. And I think we've seen that a few times. So just simple, it's been funny like we've seen partners with like sort of 4050 letter company names.
00:10:20 Chris
Yeah.
00:10:26
Like.
00:10:27 Rob
It's difficult to remember, you know.
00:10:29
People just want to write.
00:10:30 Rob
Something down in a notebook or sort of put it down in notes on the phone. You know, I think it's gonna be quick and easy. I mean, we've had, we've had our issues. I think you know, probably if I say one negative would be 40 G sounds a little bit like G4S, the sort of security.
00:10:42 Rob
Company so people.
00:10:43 Rob
Always seem to put.
00:10:44 Rob
The G before the fall. So if maybe they're a little bit more time.
00:10:47 Rob
Yeah. We probably looked at compressing competing brands and similar, but on the whole, yeah, it's been good. We sort of and it's interesting actually the the longer you survive and sort.
00:10:47
Let me.
00:10:56 Rob
Thrive the more well known your brand gets, the less that happens. Like it's really interesting like we used to get spelling mistakes all the time in the first 2-3 years where we G4D4G, you know, I've had every single.
00:11:08 Rob
Whatever having every what?
00:11:09 Rob
3 * 3 yeah, and then every single iteration of the nine possible versions, but I think I've seen them all, but in the last.
00:11:14 Rob
Few years, that sort of dropped off, but of it which is nice.
00:11:20 Chris
Jimmy, that's is. Let's hear it from somebody else, because that's that's one of my my things, you know, is when people say I've got this, this new company name, this new product name and it's it's a really long complicated thing. And I'm like, well, it's gonna help your SEO to trying to find it because there's gonna be no competitors there, but people aren't gonna remember that that stuff, you know, I think back to.
00:11:37 Chris
Kind of North Island days when you had to memorise, you know, vehicle recognition plates and it was just the most complicated thing trying to remember this combination of of letters and numbers that didn't really have any context attached to them at the time. And that's kind of why.
00:11:50 Chris
Say to you know, a lot of a lot of startups now, but you guys obviously push through that barrier and then you've got that that recognition and it it does come just because like.
00:11:57 Rob
Yeah.
00:11:58 Rob
I think, yeah.
00:12:02 Rob
Always but say which is interesting, I think as well. If you're gonna make changes, make them early. It's the one thing we've learned is we. We thought we had a logo for about 6 months after, you know, maybe 12 months after we started and we decided it was. We didn't like it and change.
00:12:07 Chris
Yeah.
00:12:14 Rob
Early we looked at brand. It's really interesting sort of brand changes the further and obviously your your, your, the people, you work with your clients, your sort of partners will know this. But the longer you wait, the harder it gets because you know your logo is then on every single document, every single website, every single, yeah, it's actually really interesting make changes take the risk early to make the change.
00:12:34 Rob
Don't sort of sit on your hands with a logo or brand you hate and then sort of regret three years later. But you know it's gonna take you months now to conduct a thorough change. So, I mean, when we we looked at it as just a sort of case study about a year ago like this would take ages to replace every logo and bright and sort of rounding.
00:12:51
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. No.
00:12:53 Chris
I mean it. It's it's like, incredibly useful kind of advice because it is literally is is like developing that brand early on. Actually you know it's something we say as well is is it you know get it get it as good so that you can scale it up and then just focus on the development of the of the products or the services and in that case so you don't have to worry about the branding and the stuff that's going on behind the scenes.
00:13:14 Chris
For people to kind of find.
00:13:15 Rob
Yeah.
00:13:17
Hmm.
00:13:19 Chris
So I mean so, so next question, I was going to ask is is can I have broad handfuls? How do your customers find you, is it like like social media or is it for the website, is it in person, is it or that kind of organic approach?
00:13:31 Rob
So it's been so I've I've gotta be cautious on this one because defence I think really is unique. So I'll give a.
00:13:37 Rob
Really. I'll give a really.
00:13:38 Rob
Fair answer for defence, I think it.
00:13:40 Rob
Would.
00:13:40 Rob
Be I don't wanna pretend I have any particular knowledge of retail or any of the more sort of.
00:13:45 Rob
Larger sort of in terms of client base industries, but with us it's I think it's been predominantly in the UK word of mouth initially that's then drifted into very fortunate to work with a great team in the UK with our media engagement and we've ended up on programmes like BBC CLICK which is really good.
00:13:54
Yeah.
00:14:05 Rob
That sort of got us with global recognition and weirdly sort of some of the recognition we've had sort of interest from come from places like Alberta Lithuania since that BC click. So finding it was a that one is a really.
00:14:19 Rob
Well, I'll say well planned and the team, James and the team that did it, it was, but I.
00:14:24 Rob
Think one thing.
00:14:24 Rob
We didn't realise is.
00:14:25 Rob
The BBC programmes or the TV programmes that are global either are licenced to multiple countries, are significantly better. Clearly you know.
00:14:32 Rob
It's fairly obvious point.
00:14:34 Rob
But I think it's been for us, it's been a real journey, we.
00:14:36 Rob
Sort of started off with.
00:14:37 Rob
Well, the mouth then started to hit socials.
00:14:40 Rob
A bit now for for defence. Social media is a really interesting one. You can't get down heartened by followers because realistically you probably have two or three clients in the UK.
00:14:51 Rob
So as long as they're on your social media, it doesn't matter if you have 5 followers, you're still gonna have the same effect. Yeah, we're not a retail company. Well, clearly, you know, if I'm selling T-shirts or gyms or whatever or other other stuff, clearly followers are critical. But for us, we just focused on call. So yeah, social media's been really good. I think it's been a.
00:14:57
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:05 Chris
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:08 Rob
Really interesting the different forums.
00:15:12 Rob
So I think most.
00:15:13 Rob
Of our professional engagement has been between LinkedIn and.
00:15:15 Rob
Better I think we've had Instagrams actually just created an element of a sort of photo album for us, for posterity as much As for a social engagement tells me very useful. And then I'll come and see what the 1st and then website as we have just.
00:15:24 Chris
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:31 Rob
We've just conducted our first major step up probably in three years and that's actually we've had a lot of impact on that.
00:15:36
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:37 Rob
But I'd say.
00:15:38 Rob
Probably word of mouth through to media.
00:15:40 Rob
And if there was?
00:15:41 Rob
One thing that I would say, I mean we'll talk about this a bit later about sort of two or three little tip.
00:15:47 Rob
That's advice one is me distrusted earlier, like early, and don't think the media is gonna come to you. So it's not, you know you. Yeah. You wanna sit there and sit there and the media come to you? No. You need to get out either do it yourself or what partners like yourself. You know who are actually gonna understand how to engage with these people and.
00:15:51 Chris
Yeah.
00:16:04 Rob
Get to you.
00:16:05 Rob
Know the meat. I always find the one thing has been a revelation.
00:16:07 Rob
To me, with the media has been is it's a two way St.
00:16:10 Rob
Like when I first asked, I thought.
00:16:11 Rob
It was gonna.
00:16:11 Rob
Be they we have to pitch to them and they'll do stuff for.
00:16:14 Rob
Us actually, they need stories as much as we need exposure. And so I think that that would be one thing I've sort of learned gradually over the last few years. Yeah, I think that's been sort of it's been a sort of multi phase thing now it's and then probably the first great, great timing for the final point for you, the answer the question would be you know.
00:16:20 Chris
Yeah.
00:16:31 Rob
The.
00:16:31 Rob
Week before DCI we.
00:16:33 Rob
Do a lot of trade shows.
00:16:35 Rob
I'll be if you don't mind. I just sort of I have my opinion on trade shows. I think they.
00:16:39 Rob
Are incredibly.
00:16:40 Rob
Powerful. I think they are an incredible money vacuum. I found it interesting defence that actually chatting to you know, some of our investors and our board members.
00:16:40
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:52 Rob
They haven't. They have slowly filtered out in other industries and I think one of the reasons is they can be a very expensive activity. So I think for start-ups and scale ups, choosing the right 123 shows a year and then hitting them hard is better than potentially trying to do 10 weekly. You know I always think you know.
00:17:02
Yes.
00:17:12 Rob
If you do one good stand a year at Big Show, that's probably better than 10 small stands throughout the year because a it's 10 times as much work. But also people you know you need people to be drawn in, you need some sort of catch catch. You need some sort of hook. Get people to.
00:17:29 Rob
So you you don't have really a big stand, but I think don't fall through and a half of chats just having some sort of pop up at the back of your stand and expect you to come talk to you need something that people gonna come over and engage on whatever your product is and then you know free drinks free gives its always help you know in terms of bringing people onto the stand. But yeah, I just think I think that shows I have a.
00:17:49 Rob
It's a really interesting time to have this conversation like they're hugely beneficial, but they're hugely expensive and I think there is a real.
00:17:56 Rob
You sort of find your way in your whatever industry or respective industry people are in. But.
00:18:00 Rob
Just you know.
00:18:01 Rob
Don't feel like you have to be there. Definitely don't get trapped in there if we're not there, it will fit it will. The market will think that something's.
00:18:07 Rob
Wrong. I think that's a really.
00:18:09 Rob
That kind of. Yeah, exactly. Or if we're, if we're not there, we might miss out. Yeah. Cool. You might miss out, but also, you're gonna save the time, effort, money. As long as you do it deliberately. That's a good thing. And I think just focus on that. So, yeah, I think to answer questions sort of more succinctly, trade shows, social media, media is probably the one I would just push the.
00:18:27 Rob
The hardest and.
00:18:29 Rob
And just and and just sort of pounding, pounding the miles going out, meeting people, getting them to know you and sort of word.
00:18:35
Well.
00:18:36
Yeah.
00:18:37 Chris
And I guess there's probably there's probably overlap from when we when we leaving the military just in that transition phase where it was just a case of just go out and and network and have coffees and kind of put yourselves in those in those industries and and in people's kind of front of mind and I guess that's it it it works exactly the same with those startups where they just need to be in front of I mean not the trade shows.
00:18:57 Chris
Specifically, but things where they're in front of people, sort of like a light touch on social media, light touch on trade shows like, say one maybe one per year and then just being kind of relevant and just.
00:19:08 Chris
People's in people's kind of eye line for that.
00:19:12 Chris
First kind of.
00:19:13 Chris
What year to two years for and how fast they?
00:19:15 Chris
Grow.
00:19:16 Rob
Yeah. No, I like that. And I think everyone's slightly in. I again, I probably will revisit this point. It's like don't, I'd be very frustrated by the SME. So I think SMB is a useful term. I also think it's a very insidious.
00:19:29 Rob
Umm, because you are a small medium sized enterprise, but the ambition of any smaller medium sized enterprise should be an L it should not be to stay an S and.
00:19:37 Rob
I think the problem I think the.
00:19:38 Chris
Yeah.
00:19:40 Rob
Sometimes there are some really good organisations that can help get you presents at these shows and that's fantastic. I think there is a risk that if you overuse them, you pigeon yourself as a company that needs assistance and therefore as small and there's, you know, I think there's gonna be a real mental.
00:20:00 Rob
Drive to get to becoming seen as a much more credible and larger company quickly think you know? Definitely leverage those amazing organisations and help early, but if you're in year 678910 and you're still leveraging that like if you want to be a.
00:20:14 Rob
Small company for that's fine, but if.
00:20:16 Rob
I feel like.
00:20:16 Rob
There has to be a moment where you step out onto 123 and that's why I say do one trade show well and blast it, even if it's a small one that doesn't cost as much money. That's probably more impact than just being seen as a small company at multiple, if that makes any sense.
00:20:26
Yeah.
00:20:31 Chris
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no it.
00:20:33 Chris
It's interesting what you're saying there because we've done a lot of studying into kind of what the semiotic signs are of small, medium, small to medium sized enterprises. So that the you know, the ones that are actually the kind of the more medium looking to be larger actually communicate that they're larger before they necessarily become their larger, you know.
00:20:49 Chris
That's how can how can I say it without kind of mixing my words? Is it they they want to be seen as like a more as a bigger player. And that means drilling down into the detail that they haven't really ever drilled down into to say well, you know, why aren't we doing this? Why aren't we doing this thing here and just kind of that that transition into being the the bigger player.
00:21:10 Chris
You know can sometimes be painful and and and take some time from what we see anyway.
00:21:14 Rob
100% I think there's no more visualisation. An element of people treat you how you portray yourself, so if you come.
00:21:21 Rob
Across, you know, and I think there's an element of.
00:21:23 Rob
You know you don't wanna drift into like, your two person business pretending you're a twenty person business. It's not that. What what it is is that you're going to be a twenty person business in say time period X, you know a year, two years, five years. I think that's what people want to see in my in my opinion I think you know we probably have learned over time. I just think there's an element of you've got.
00:21:43 Rob
Growth is important. You don't have to fake it or do anything like that, just being seem to progress, you know, and it doesn't necessarily mean revenue or number employees.
00:21:52 Rob
Is it just means that there's a progression? I think it's interesting when you see the stagnation of some brands, you know, sort of like there's no difference this year to last year. It's the same stand with the same clothing with the same apparel, with the same branding. And you just think, hmm, that's not really getting across the message that you're.
00:22:00
Hmm.
00:22:10 Rob
Gonna be cutting edge.
00:22:11 Rob
And that look, is there a link?
00:22:12 Rob
Solely between cutting edge technology or equipment or product and cutting edge funding.
00:22:17 Rob
It's not a direct link, but my view would be if you're the sort of company that have got your branding on point, there's a good chance you also got your product.
00:22:24 Rob
On.
00:22:24 Rob
Point I think it you know, it's just it's like anything, you know, I always feel like certain of some of the big technology.
00:22:30 Rob
Companies get away.
00:22:31 Rob
With that, a real lack of product sort of product iteration because they're running looks cool and so.
00:22:37 Rob
Feels new. It feels cool. Even a lot, actually. The core underlying technology is not progressed much.
00:22:37
Morning.
00:22:43 Chris
Yeah. Yeah, there, there, there is again the neuroscience connections to say that, you know, companies have got bigger brands for example and and and well established actually slows down the innovation because people, you know the brand, the brand drives awareness and perception and actually it leads to kind of the the stagnation internally and the on the products.
00:23:02 Chris
People know that there's constant flow of money. There isn't that kind of appetite or drive to actually iterate and really like, you know, squeeze out those 1% marginal gains because it's like, well, it's OK, it's fine. You know, it's just it's just kind of bumbling along. It doesn't really, you know, and that's you start to lose talent, start to lose that kind of edge that's pushing you to try big, you know, risks and actually say, well, let's let's.
00:23:24 Chris
See if this thing works with the intention of iterating it further down the line. That kind of lean startup method.
00:23:29 Rob
Agreed. And I think one of things and we'll definitely talk about this is.
00:23:32 Rob
The the second your Board you got leave the second. You're not driving. Hungry to you can make some hunger jokes about me if you want, but no. If you're not driving.
00:23:43 Rob
Terms of a desire to to change, you need to leave.
00:23:48 Rob
And I think.
00:23:49 Rob
That's where especially.
00:23:50 Rob
For the bettering community, I think some of the best companies I've seen have been sort of bettering startups that have then grown, but I think there's an element of just making sure that you've got the five 10/15/20 years that it might take, you know, some, some lucky.
00:24:03 Rob
Goals get it done in six months. Great. All parts of them. Most don't. Mm-hmm. And I think people should plan on them more likely that it will be a 5 to 15 year.
00:24:11 Rob
Grind than a one year, there was a great HBC quote that said it's surprising how many nights there are are in an overnight success, which I think is something that.
00:24:23 Rob
I think that's something that you know, really could be should be taken in by some anyone wants to start.
00:24:28 Rob
Up a new a company.
00:24:31 Chris
Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's interesting. So I've heard a a very similar metaphor that says about kind of melting an ice cube and that the only the moment you see a melt, an ice cube melting, you know, like, like the success.
00:24:42 Chris
You actually miss out on, you know, the 20 other degrees that it's taken together, ice cube to zero. It has a visible effect, but obviously you're heating the ice cube by 1%, so by by 1°, you know, over hours to actually get it to melt. And it's you. You can't just look at that moment, it melts and say the the thing I did immediately before, that was what got that.
00:25:01 Rob
I understand and I think one of the.
00:25:02 Rob
Key things I've.
00:25:03 Chris
I like yours.
00:25:04 Rob
One of the key things we've done is social media is really double sided tour actually and one things we do is early on.
00:25:11 Rob
Especially in this.
00:25:12 Rob
Very early in this sort of startup process.
00:25:16 Rob
You're constantly looking over your shoulder. You're constantly looking at the market. You're constantly looking industry. And actually I think if there's one sort of bit of advice, I would say on that exact point, your eyes keeping energy is.
00:25:27 Rob
Everyone is everyone has got the same grind. What they stick on social media is the output of that grind. So if you were, if if what you're looking at is only ever LinkedIn for instance, you think everyone else is doing amazingly and you're doing terribly, there's an element to me of.
00:25:40 Rob
Like, you know, sort of not to use the military analogies but estimates. But like, stop looking at what the enemy are doing and start decide. Start thinking about what you want to do. Stop. You can't impact or affect what another company is gonna do in terms of IRAD or marketing or sales. You can only that. That's a hard lesson I've learned over sort of.
00:25:51
Yeah.
00:25:59 Rob
Seven years is.
00:26:00 Rob
The first three years I've probably spent.
00:26:03 Rob
Hours, days, weeks worrying about what this company is doing, what that company is doing. I think now you can only change what's in your swim lane. So focus on that and then realise that everyone else has got that 20° to the melting point as well. Like it's not that they've just got the melting point even at my feel like that. And I think that's something to just constantly remind yourself, it's like you're not doing badly.
00:26:23 Rob
Just because you're in an iterative cycle and then at the end of an iterative cycle that just is naturally, you're out of sync.
00:26:31 Chris
Yeah, that's that's great. Great advice. So like it's, there's I, I think like startups will actually want to hear that from, you know from company cause a company like yours because it is now it is now you know seen on on the, on organisations like BBC, it's been in newspapers, it's been, you know shared globally and obviously.
00:26:49 Chris
See your your kind of social media. We we we chat and you know and you're you're off now kind of working in in lots of overseas markets as well you know and it it's like that kind of visible moment of success. You know where as as.
00:27:04 Chris
Maybe gonna go back kind of like six or seven years ago. And I remember we're we're kind of, you know, both trying to figure out which way was up from, you know, from from a decade in the military. So yeah, mate, that's it's great to hear. It's great to hear that. Let's let's talk a bit about your website because we've we've.
00:27:14 Rob
So.
00:27:20 Chris
It's. I've seen that. How much it's it's iterated and changed over the last few years and it's really it really now reflects the, you know, the the magnitude of of 4G D so can you give us a bit of background into kind of what the process was from when you started up to to where it is?
00:27:34 Chris
Now and like how many iterations you've been through or things like that.
00:27:37 Rob
So when we first had our website.
00:27:40 Rob
We had an initial website was basically holding website till 2019. I want to say where we sort of got our first website 2018-2019.
00:27:48 Rob
Got a first.
00:27:48 Rob
Website up which is cool, but it's interesting. You sort of have. You have different phases of the company's life cycle and clearly earlier on the company, any company you don't have many photos, you've got lots of ideas, you've got lots of conceptual.
00:28:01 Rob
That's a kit, but you haven't delivered it. You haven't given any projects, so you know our website, our first iteration had loads of synthetics they sort of.
00:28:10 Rob
SketchUp and real CAD models stuff we've done in virtual reality and and.
00:28:14
Yeah.
00:28:16 Rob
It was also quite we.
00:28:17 Rob
We did some cool little gimmicks, you know, sort of like the the the website adapted to the weather that you're currently in. You know, if it was raining, it was raining all.
00:28:24 Rob
That.
00:28:24 Rob
Sort of stuff and it's cool and it, but it gave that sort of like new company working out. They were doing, looking at how they wanted to.
00:28:29 Rob
About the market, what we felt now is sort of four years on from that, 4-5 years on from that, we actually have done a load of projects. Now we have got a load of the teams growing that we need to focus more on the.
00:28:30 Chris
Yes.
00:28:40 Rob
We we also need a much more, you know, have a much more refined business strategy and that needs to come across. So we wanted to then and there's some great examples of websites out there and I think there's a real.
00:28:50 Rob
There's a real strength for looking at companies you aspire to be like and then looking at how they do their website. So not and. And they're not absolutely not then just copying that and sinker but just taking some of the bits like the layout like the you know, focusing on critical areas, making it simple to navigate, making sure it's optimised for mobile, all that sort of stuff. But like so yeah we did that.
00:28:56
Yeah.
00:29:11 Rob
Now it's a lot more photo heavy, a lot more.
00:29:13 Rob
More stuff we've done have a I still think my my humble opinion. I know something we, me and you have discussed is the website has to be able to adapt quickly. I think there are a lot of dead websites websites that have been designed and effectively have no real ability to content manage or upload content so affects their diet and you know.
00:29:25
Yes. Yeah.
00:29:32
MHM.
00:29:33 Rob
Even though things, it's sort of, it's a really minor one you see on some websites where the bottom they've got like the the the copyright year and it's like copyright 2013 and you're sort of like.
00:29:41
Yeah.
00:29:43 Rob
If you're gonna.
00:29:43 Rob
Put that on that.
00:29:43 Rob
Needs to be updated every year I think.
00:29:45 Chris
Yeah.
00:29:48 Chris
It's like a combat indicator, isn't it? It's like you're not been managing your website, and now it's there's literally like, you know.
00:29:53 Chris
We know everywhere we're buying it, you know the.
00:29:53 Rob
There's like a.
00:29:54 Rob
Time stamp for when? Last time you managed it. Yeah, literally it's.
00:29:55 Chris
Website.
00:29:56 Rob
There.
00:29:57 Rob
And I think I find it very interesting that he wouldn't do that sort of.
00:30:00 Rob
Stuff, but yeah, I.
00:30:01 Rob
Think defence is interesting one because it's obviously dominated by big prime companies with huge resources and budgets and now they have a a type website and I think that had some aspirational elements to it.
00:30:13 Rob
But you wanted to be something new.
00:30:15 Rob
The Newberry. So we went out and looked at other companies that are doing incredible things in this industry, like Anduril, Palantir, sort of US based venture companies, had a look at their websites, took some of the cool bits. Like there's some really interesting ways they did it display the information. I think getting us some visuals in their videos all that.
00:30:31 Rob
Sort of stuff.
00:30:33 Rob
I'll tell you one of the biggest frustrations we had is we launched our video.
00:30:36 Rob
Our website, about a week before Twitter's logo.
00:30:38 Rob
Changed. So we then spent the next week coming to see change every single Twitter icon across our entire website, which was a surprisingly high. Yeah, I mean stuff like that. It's amusing. Yeah. Just just standby for social media logo changes. That's a little harder than.
00:30:52 Rob
We thought it would be.
00:30:55 Chris
So it's almost the 21st century timestamp, isn't it? You know where it's.
00:30:58 Chris
Like, oh, that's.
00:30:59 Chris
How? How on earth have we not seen this?
00:31:01 Chris
One coming in. Yeah, it's it's.
00:31:01 Rob
Maybe we do a.
00:31:02 Rob
Really thorough job, still still missed 3 or 4 little birds. So every now and again I go on the.
00:31:05 Rob
Website Find one have to change it to a next so yes.
00:31:11 Chris
Well, mate, it it's interesting. You like you. You you said that because one of the things we always say to kind of start-ups, we focus on kind of SME's that you know for for for the time and one of things we always say is like if you're if you're new getting a new website is is don't get a custom coded website at start because doesn't have CMS.
00:31:28 Chris
It's so hard to keep it updated, you'll.
00:31:30 Chris
Kind of tied to whichever web development company or agency has built it for you. And if they don't have the time or they charge an exorbitant amount, you you can't iterate it with how fast your product cycle is changing as well because it's obviously your, your, your products and services will go through. So many changes in the first few years that you will, they'll look completely different. You know from where they first started.
00:31:51 Chris
Imagine for a lot of a lot of tech startups and and and others.
00:31:54 Rob
100 and and make sure you hold absolutely to reiterate what you just.
00:31:59 Rob
And if you outsource them as we did and we had a great, you know we've some we've worked with, he's fantastic, but make sure you hold the code or make sure you hold the design. So if there's ever any issues, yeah you don't get stuck because I mean we've seen that not necessarily websites but other areas of business where not not saying anything untoward but like someone goes on holiday or has an emergency at the moment you need to make a change I think it's important.
00:32:20 Rob
And yeah, I completely iterate. Couldn't iterate your point. Better designed the website around the fact it will change.
00:32:28 Rob
Immediately, you know, we probably made seven changes the day after it went live. Just because we didn't like how it works when you.
00:32:34 Rob
Know some people feedback.
00:32:34
Yeah.
00:32:37 Rob
You know to process or change team members, you know, as you grow, you wanna keep that up to date or let people leave. I think it's, you know you you wanna make sure if people leave or drawing that that's that's shown the website immediately I think it looks really good.
00:32:49
David.
00:32:49 Rob
And then also media, I mean we've got a media, some newsroom like keeping it up to date is quite satisfying actually because then you don't lose any media coverage you've got. But it also shows like I said earlier about the.
00:32:59 Rob
Time.
00:33:00 Rob
Stamping. If someone does your website and the last media articles three days ago, they're gonna go OK. This is obviously clearly up to date. Yeah. If someone goes last media articles four years ago, there's a bit of a red flag.
00:33:09 Rob
Out whether the company even still exists.
00:33:12 Chris
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's one of. That's one of reasons why we pick square space outwards, because actually it's something which a lot of a lot of kind of entrepreneurs could figure out how to put an article on square space. That means you could literally do it every day if you wanted to. But the the second effect of that is also, as it feeds information to Google. And so you're you're more likely to rank your pages.
00:33:31 Chris
On the Google search, because you've got something which people are searching, you know, searching for it's it's generally referred to as news jacking. So you find things that in say in in current affairs or being discussed. Then you write articles based around that.
00:33:45 Chris
To help increase your discoverability on on the search engines, which obviously that you guys can do cause you've also got a dedicated team, but those startups generally you know they need something like WordPress or Squarespace to be able to update some kind of increase their discoverability. You know when people haven't, maybe they've got a long name like we discussed earlier and.
00:34:05 Chris
Someone caught an article they wrote about and half their name, and so they just put that into Google and you know, we we see from our search results all the times that people hear hiatus and then, you know, kind of guests.
00:34:17 Chris
Is a bit like my surname or the team or design or something like that. And then you would just see the most random Google searches that land on your website because you've you kind of scale pages for.
00:34:19
Yeah.
00:34:27 Rob
100% we've I think that's really, really and obviously sort of want the one thing we're talking about because we.
00:34:34 Rob
We're now getting to a point where some of the keywords around our industry close combat urban, that sort of stuff is bringing.
00:34:40
That.
00:34:41 Rob
That has if you don't.
00:34:42 Rob
Do it in the non.
00:34:42
Mm-hmm.
00:34:44 Rob
Organic way that you're talking about the sort of like a jacking way of doing it if you try and do the organic way, it's taking us six years. You know, as in we have slowly crept up at the so doing that quickly will be important because you know, like you said, no one will ever look up and no one ever remembers your website. I mean that's the QR code or something that they got a card.
00:34:52 Chris
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:01 Rob
They'll they'll just type in.
00:35:03 Rob
Yeah.
00:35:03 Rob
Hiatus, like you said, or your name or UK UK defence training company or something. That will probably what comes up, you know.
00:35:11 Rob
And I think being able to that actually lead back to you is one of the worst things government. Clearly we talk about the positive, the negative is if you have a capacitor that's very close to in your space and they have a better SEO than you, you'll end up literally.
00:35:22 Rob
Leading people to them because they'll be the first one that comes up.
00:35:26 Chris
Yeah, yeah, I mean and that.
00:35:28 Chris
It is. It is.
00:35:29 Chris
Actually kind of move us quite conveniently on to kind of brand positioning and actually because essentially what you're describing there is 2 brands that are too similar. You could end up just sending much more business and sales and leads towards another company. Obviously, you occupies a very similar space. And the example I use for.
00:35:45 Chris
This is like Microsoft and Apple.
00:35:46 Chris
When, when? When Microsoft were the big the main player in the, you know, the industry. Apple came along and realised that they couldn't be seen as the the overly corporate entity and so took out, took on this kind of disruptive personality where you know they're releasing videos in the 80s of like this kind of, you know, really dystopian future, weren't they? Where they're where they're making tech look really evil and actually position themselves as like the creative.
00:36:06
Yeah.
00:36:08 Chris
Good guys in a way which which seemed point madness when they were, when Steve Jobs and Wozniak were doing it in, you know, in the 80s. But it's clear, you know, clearly worked for them to become the.
00:36:18 Chris
You.
00:36:18 Chris
Know the most valuable company in the world these days, but.
00:36:21 Rob
I yeah, I understand. I think how you're viewed. I think there's always gonna be.
00:36:26
Yeah.
00:36:27 Rob
So it's something we've driven quite hard in the business. It's like if we wear hoodies to a show one year, we can't wear them the next year. If you wear a like if you have, if you have a water bottle as it gives it one show, you can't have it the next show. If you have a certain video at a launch event, you have to change it for the next event. If you go into a talk and you give the same talk twice, you've lost.
00:36:47 Rob
And I think, you know, there's got to be an element of that that takes time and it's actually quite hard work. And I one thing I I be really well with this work, but like employee, we've we've got some great, the team has great. One of key things to do is to find people that.
00:36:49
Yeah.
00:37:04 Rob
Have the same drive to be different. I think there's a real and something I've noticed there is a real.
00:37:12 Rob
Sort of push to the easy sometimes with certain groups of people and actually want to find people that want to be different. Want to be innovative. Just just saying on me and this is one thing I think actually having a group of people that are willing to go and find a manufacturer of random visits or a new logo at 3:00 in the morning. If you just had a good idea.
00:37:17
Yes.
00:37:30 Rob
But that's the sort of stuff you want. It is hard. It's very easy to repeat the order from.
00:37:34 Rob
This year for this year, it's very hard to find a new manufacturer go through the fact that probably rubbish. Then last one another one and eventually find a good one and you've only got 2 weeks to do it, but you gotta drive, you gotta drive. And I think especially in the formative years, you know when when you're.
00:37:47 Rob
As.
00:37:47 Rob
Big as some of the primes in the defence sector, there's there's no variable benefit you're turning over.
00:37:52 Rob
Hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars.
00:37:55 Rob
You're gonna be getting that money anyway, and so there you have a different differentiation of brand position.
00:37:59 Rob
Problem, but at the early stage, I think you've got to be considered new. I think there's also gonna be a huge focus on brand credibility and brand reputation like one bad ask or one bad you.
00:38:09 Chris
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:11 Rob
Know.
00:38:12 Rob
If we we've always had a view. If there's a problem, you know we've made mistakes in the company. If there's a problem on a site, we'll.
00:38:17 Rob
Fix it. No matter how much it costs, no matter what we do.
00:38:20 Rob
In the early stage, you've got to get that reputation that you're going to be.
00:38:22 Rob
Someone that will be there and will help.
00:38:25 Rob
Early and I.
00:38:25 Rob
Think that's just.
00:38:25
Yeah.
00:38:26 Rob
It's just gonna be a constant desire to be different, to have different care products, to have different capability. And it's especially different difficult in defence industry that is insistent on buying the same thing. So like you have to really work, you have to work doubly hard to get. You know, I think it's it's one area that I sort of.
00:38:45 Rob
I'm envious of in retail or some consumer technology or gaming, if you come up the cool idea and it's cool, it will sell in defence. You've got to come up the cool idea and then sell it and then win a competition against it and then you can sell it. And so like it's a slightly longer slog frankly, but.
00:39:03 Chris
Yeah, I mean it, it's it's incredible because it it, it literally makes me think back to kind of you know the fundamentals of putting together a high performing team as in the people that can kind of constructively disagree with you in the interests of of driving the company in, in to unexplored territory. And whilst not obviously shattering relationships within the team.
00:39:03 Rob
One of those for the.
00:39:25 Chris
And and that that is kind of working that working environment but.
00:39:29 Chris
For the for the good, in the interest of the team is just creatively exploring new concepts and I guess just look under all those rocks and just saying like, why are we doing this thing like this? What what's is there any any more marginal gains we can squeeze out of it? And that's that's what I think again, to be to be Uber. Chad hands up is in some ways like I think I see I saw it stem from back from the core.
00:39:50 Chris
When the motto the 1st to adapt the vessel understand. Sorry first first to understand the 1st to adapt. The first overcome, get the right around you know is is you know is is there and limps there's you know and it's it's it's part of the commando ethos which you're given on the.
00:40:05 Chris
In in in the in the books on certain day one of of Lympstone and it like it. It sounds horrendously Chad, but I kind of thought back to it the other day and I was like 11, we're always kind of like looking for, you know, this these unexplored territories for companies and for brands and and it's a way of being an outlier. And as I think it is.
00:40:23 Chris
Actually backed down.
00:40:25 Chris
You know, back to limestone again that's you know.
00:40:27 Chris
Like those those days.
00:40:28 Rob
I think be first also be genuine. You know, if you're the sort of person that it's typically going to be in a suit, wearing a hoodie just feels looks weird. If you're someone who typically wears hoodies, like, don't try and be someone in a suit like, I think these first be original would be genuine. I think would be critical and I think, but yeah, you're you're on me first I think the.
00:40:37
Yeah.
00:40:44
Yeah.
00:40:49 Rob
Try and market lead everything you do like there's so many random stuff like you know, I I I made a joke about hoodies, you know we we sort of slightly popped the trend in 2019 going to defence show where typically everyone's suits wore hoodies.
00:41:01 Rob
Two years later, we weren't the only start. There were three or four companies that were wearing hoodies, so we had moved on again and I think that's sort of try and buck the track, you know, just be unpredictable. I think would be the sort of, I think, the second you sort of stagnate, you'll end up having people copy you and then all look like it was their idea. So just always make it seem original, never do something twice unless it's really, really good.
00:41:02 Chris
Nice.
00:41:13
Yeah.
00:41:22 Rob
Yeah, I think.
00:41:25 Chris
I mean in a a game like you, you can almost trace that back to kind of like, you know, war fighting things, you know, that we learned as well, isn't it? Is is just that, that unpredictability of, you know, of war, fighting to, to kind of getting the enemies either loop it. It sounds Meghan. Chad but.
00:41:39 Chris
It's.
00:41:40 Chris
You know, there's a lot of overlap here.
00:41:42 Chris
That I'm just thinking, you know.
00:41:44 Chris
Convince them like you know how? How is it? So how's it kind of fit into business? But I can kind of see where it does. And you know from from our conversation I guess.
00:41:50 Rob
Yes.
00:41:53 Chris
In the interest of letting you kind of get on, get on with the work on a Friday afternoon, I just want to fire through kind of a couple more questions then definitely, yeah.
00:42:00 Chris
Definitely let you go. What? What?
00:42:03 Chris
What can you see is that the main challenge is to start up trying to grow and and stand out in their current like climate. You know what? Obviously, in the era of generative AI.
00:42:12 Chris
We've always just been for a big pandemic. There's been loads of change over the last five years. What you know, if you were starting again as a as a start up now, what do you think you would maybe do differently or or or see the the?
00:42:23 Chris
The current threats as I will.
00:42:23
Because.
00:42:26 Rob
OK, if you're starting today, I would make sure I was in a space that either can exploit AI or is not potentially at risk from a I I think potentially some time based solution type company, you know to where it's sort of a capability or report writing. I would be slightly concerned.
00:42:45 Rob
I would probably just focus very heavily on market.
00:42:51 Rob
Fit because it's gonna get tight. I think I'll be you know, I'll trick on defence clear, which has a slightly it's somewhat protected by sort of macroeconomic trends, because obviously sort of being government, yeah. So we're slightly protected by that. I think I would ensure I was.
00:43:07 Rob
Well.
00:43:08 Rob
I had the funding to survive of probably what?
00:43:11 Rob
May well be a couple of rough years, I think trying to ensure that you're not living hand to mouth.
00:43:16 Rob
We're doing it and and I think just I think generic marketing may become significantly easier with AI. So you gonna have to start to come up with some really innovative bespoke and original marketing that isn't just going to be easy to be, you know, the sort of content that can't just be easily generated on chat.
00:43:30
Yes.
00:43:37 Rob
Really. How can you do something that is not going to be so? Yeah, I I think it's a good question about how to stand.
00:43:39 Chris
Yes.
00:43:43 Rob
Out I think market.
00:43:44 Rob
Fit. I know it's like an odd answer.
00:43:46 Rob
Just there is going to be areas where this sort of technology is going to make life easier and make the barrier trenches significantly lower. Try and find areas where that isn't going to be the case and there are, you know, there are still areas where like you.
00:43:54
Yeah.
00:43:59 Rob
Know a I can't build.
00:44:00 Rob
Buildings, you know it will help build buildings it.
00:44:02 Rob
Will help with.
00:44:03 Rob
The design process it. Yeah. Eventually, maybe.
00:44:06 Rob
That you know, in the short term, there's sort of physical and a human in that element to it. You know, building, designing new technology. I think you know that sort of element I'll be pushing heavily towards. But you know, I think branding and effectively not just coming with generic content is gonna be quite important. I think that's gonna become significantly easier. And I think with.
00:44:25 Rob
To your point, there's gonna be some really interesting battles around SEO. You know, he's effectively, I think some of that you might be able to use AI for. And so that's great. It's your advantage. I think if you're a first mover on that, if you're a you know if you're someone that's gonna get outgunned by someone else that's using that technology, maybe you.
00:44:35 Chris
Yeah.
00:44:40 Rob
Need to think about things.
00:44:41 Rob
Differently, but yeah, it's really as I thought about it within the context of.
00:44:45 Rob
But yeah, I think definitely have have legs and be original I think would be my sort of two key points on the current climate.
00:44:57 Chris
Yeah. Yeah, because, I mean, I guess if you were friends really like the knowledge economy, you know it it, it's always been seen in this guy very safe place, isn't it? You know where it's like your consultant, your experience in this stuff, you know, you're going to be, you know, always going to be in demand always going to have your services needed. But as we as we've definitely seen with with ChatGPT for instance you know it's like you could.
00:45:16 Chris
You could literally you could script like legal documents. You could do a whole lot of things which weren't possible, just, you know, just a year, this time last year. And so yeah, we, we've we've kind of seen like lots of you know we've had to do some pivots. We've seen lots of other companies have to do some pivots and now.
00:45:34 Chris
How how are startups going to tackle this new, you know, kind of areas because people are iterating the generative AI systems aren't entirely new ones, aren't they?
00:45:42 Rob
When people would say though that I do see as an opportunity for startups, is the removal of costly barriers to entry through Church BT so not maybe not right now, but accountancy, legal support, consultancy support. If you just said that, that would have been not available to a startup or a scale.
00:46:00 Rob
But will now be available for free, maybe not for free. You know when when it's licenced, but you know for it for pennies on the dollar rather than for the large dollars that large companies make. So there may actually be, you know, I remain to be convinced of this, but I do think there might be an opportunity for this to be a.
00:46:12
Yeah.
00:46:18 Rob
A leveller in some regards in the you know, services that were only open to large companies with large cash flows may be, but yeah, it's I think could be an interesting period.
00:46:29 Chris
Yeah. Yeah, no, same. And my, my, my last last question, any words of advice for startups, you know, people going through that Paul considering it as well because there's there's tonnes in the veterans community who are who sat there on the fence saying should I do this? Should I just wait, stay in this job, any any advice for them?
00:46:47 Rob
I'd say I mean.
00:46:49 Rob
Not sound.
00:46:49 Rob
That I think I I I I wish more veterans would do it. I think when I left, I was certainly guided into a career that was utterly unsuitable for someone that had done.
00:46:59 Rob
That you know that join the Marines because I wanted to be going, you know, in in the middle of things, doing that, you know, sort of doing exciting and novel things. And then I got thrust into a job, which was everything but those. And so I think.
00:47:11 Rob
The veteran community has a really good, I think their mentality for the stresses of start up. I think it my my advice would be for the best community. I I would say maybe get a couple of years outside the military before you jump into this sort of thing just gives you a breadth of knowledge, if if.
00:47:19 Chris
Yeah.
00:47:28 Rob
If anything else, I think.
00:47:29 Rob
Yeah. My final point would just be.
00:47:30 Rob
It takes way longer than you think it's gonna take. You know, if if I went back to the start, I think I I've always thought next year is gonna be the year and I think next year might may well be the year, but that is 8 years after we found of the company and I think there's just an element of.
00:47:44 Rob
Don't get disheartened. It will take a long time. It is hard. It is definitely worth it. But it is not. It is not sound too pessimistic. I actually mean this is a genuine optimistic but but like it is negativity with the occasional bit of sort of positivity. It is a slog with amazing points of great.
00:48:04 Rob
Opportunity and I think one of things that I find deeply unhelpful is so the people that talk about it as if it's easy, it's great. It's gonna be a blast. You can just make it, you know, it's gonna be simple. It's not. It's it's gonna be hard and it's gonna be they're gonna be real.
00:48:14
Yeah.
00:48:17 Rob
Days. But I would just say that, you know, I think the the the positives as long as positives are the negatives and that's fine, but just be prepared for this log and also find a team early on. I think the the best community is amazing from a drive and a sort of conceptual sort of ideas perspective go out and find someone before and try and bring them into your team.
00:48:38 Rob
Either from a investor perspective ideally, or an advisor perspective similarly or as an employee perspective, try and get a good team.
00:48:46 Rob
That's understand that understands it because there is so much stuff that we've had to learn. Everything from insurances to FX to all this.
00:48:53 Rob
Sort of stuff that.
00:48:54 Rob
You need someone that knows what they're doing, otherwise gonna make mistakes. They're gonna cost you money. So, yeah, that's probably my sort of three points.
00:48:57
Yeah.
00:49:02 Chris
Yeah, mate, as a an epic place to end it right there. Cheers. Thank you so much for your time, mate. It's been. It's been generally incredible for and I have many tonnes of this for for startups, yeah.
00:49:12 Rob
Absolutely.
00:49:14 Chris
It was really great chatting to rob about the difficulties of standing out, logos, growth, marketing and competitors. If you're interested in how successful organisations have navigated those difficult early days, subscribe to our page or check out our website in the show notes below and I'll see.
00:49:29 Chris
You next time.
